Friday, October 12, 2007

Nothing like pissing off the last friend in the region

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ANKARA, Turkey (AP) -- With Turkish-U.S. relations strained, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Friday that Turkey would not be deterred by the diplomatic consequences if it decides to stage a cross-border offensive into Iraq against Kurdish rebels.

"If such an option is chosen, whatever its price, it will be paid," Erdogan told reporters in response to a question about the international repercussions of such a decision, which would strain ties with the United States and Iraq. "There could be pros and cons of such a decision, but what is important is our country's interests."

Erdogan also had harsh words for the United States, which opposes a Turkish incursion into northern Iraq -- one of the country's few relatively stable areas.

"Did they seek permission from anyone when they came from a distance of 10,000 kilometers and hit Iraq?" he said. "We do not need anyone else's advice."

Analysts say Turkey could be less restrained about defying the United States because of a congressional committee's approval of a resolution labeling the mass killings of Armenians around the time of World War I as genocide.

"Democrats are harming the future of the United States and are encouraging anti-American sentiments," Erdogan said. Democratic leaders in the House of Representatives support the resolution.

Erdogan said Turkey was ready to sacrifice good ties with Washington if necessary.


The Asian Times:
In the face of ambushes on Sunday linked to the PKK, in which more than 10 Turkish soldiers were killed, and the subsequent escalation of tension with Turkey, the Iraqi Kurdish leadership appears to be facing the situation with a certain aplomb - at least in its rhetoric. In a telephone interview, the foreign minister for the Kurdish area of Iraq, Falah M Bakir, said, "Of course we understand Turkey’s concerns, but we don’t believe that crossing the border will effectively address them."
Bakir, who is in New York for a meeting of the UN General Assembly, said that his regional government and Turkish officials are currently reduced to communicating with each other through the media. In the wake of the recent elections in Turkey, Bakir said he and his colleagues had held out the hope that a constructive dialogue with Turkey would begin. "Unfortunately there is no dialogue right now. But we are ready for talks."

When asked about Turkey’s concerns that Iraqi-Kurdish officials are not doing enough to counter the PKK, Bakir said that the group is trying to further its goals through peaceful, political aims. But when asked, he did not deny that the group could be responsible for the recent attacks in Turkey. He added that the PKK is spread out in a mountainous terrain on the border, does not have formal bases that can be attacked, and is not part of the official political structure of his regional government.

[snip]

Still, an escalation of Turkish military activity within the Kurdish region of Iraq could be risky. If the Turkish military hits civilians, Iraq would respond to Turkey, potentially causing far-reaching problems in bilateral relations. And then there is the question of civil-military relations in Turkey. The current government, with its ostensible Islamic leanings, already has strained relations with the military, which is seen by some as the caretaker of secularism in Turkey.

[snip]

For the United States, balancing the interests of the generally pro-American Iraqi Kurds, whose region is the only showcase of stability in Iraq, and NATO ally Turkey, will continue to demand diplomatic dexterity, noted Barkey. Such dexterity is something which is in short supply in the lower levels of the US State Department, at the assistant-secretary level, he added.

And there is another fresh wrinkle. Turkey warned on Thursday that relations with the US would be harmed by a US House committee’s approval on Wednesday of a non-binding resolution calling the 1915 massacres of Armenians by Ottoman Turks "genocide". The 27-21 decision by the House of Representatives foreign affairs committee comes before a vote in the full House in coming weeks, and occurred in spite of a warning from President George W Bush that cooperation with Turkey and the fate of US troops in Iraq could be at stake.


Update: Bryan at Why Now? offers an excellent synopsis on Turkey's history and the recall of the Turkish ambassador from the United States.

22 comments:

Sorghum Crow said...

And if we have a falling out with Turkey, what will we eat on Thanksgiving? Freedom bird? And the White House bird can probably forget about the pretzeldential pardon.

ellroon said...

ROFL! Well done, Crow, I'm sure Congress will get right on it!

I hope they YouTube Georgie yelling 'off with his head' as the turkey is dragged away....

Anonymous said...

What the hell is the matter with some of these Americans the first world war happen what? 93 years ago?Why would they want to get in another mess when they can't even get out of the mess that that the USA is in now.The best thing that these eggheads can do is to try and get the good reputation back that the USA used to have and not make it worse for something that is 93 years old.

Anonymous said...

In Turkey, even MENTIONING the genocide can get you locked up in prison. In turkey they have eradicated mentions of the genocide from the textbooks - breeding a new generation of genocide deniers.

A large majority of historians already accept the truth of the genocide, however turkey has gone to great lengths to try to rewrite history.

If turkey is such an important ally, where were they in 2003 when we needed their border to open a two-front war? Turkey is only an ally with us when it is in THEIR best interest. Do you realize how much financial benefits turkey is getting from the US because they are allowing the army to use their airbase? BILLIONS of dollars.

We should not allow turkey to blackmail the US government's foreign policy - regardless of how "bad" the timing is.

If we are afraid to condemn a WWI genocide, how will we be able to condemn current (or future) genocides?

ellroon said...

I quote from a Spiegel article. Replace the word 'coup' with diplomatic rift with the US:
If there is a coup in Turkey, the world would encounter a phenomenon it has never seen before. Subsequent to a coup, Turkey would seek a partnership with Russia and Iran and would obtain its weapons, energy and funding from these two countries. The natural gas, oil and nuclear power from Russia and Iran would suffice to keep Turkey on its feet, if only for a while.

But a block made up of Russia, Turkey and Iran could change the global balance. It would take complete control of the Middle East. It would imprison Europe within the borders of its small continent. It would draw the Caucasus, Afghanistan, and Pakistan under its sway. It would form close relations with the Muslim world. It would dominate the sources of oil. It would also likely form a partnership with China.

A Single Gunshot

Such a development would dramatically decrease the effectiveness of a West made up of Europe, America, and to a lesser degree, Japan. The new block would have great strength militarily, financially, and in terms of energy sources. The Turkish fissure would thus lead to a one on a global scale.

If there is to be a World War III, I believe it would emerge from this rift.

Anonymous said...

If Turkey has adopted a position of denial of the genocide,it doesn’t mean it can bind other states to deny historic truths as well. Why is a non binding resolution scaring them, especially if all the world knows they ruthlessly massacered Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians.

Anonymous said...

It is about time Turkey comes to terms with their history, just as the modern day Germans have done with the Nazis so they can move forward. What happened to the Armenian people is fact, fess up and move on.

Anonymous said...

I'd like to know how many of you are historians... Most of you sound so sure of your facts, so i'd like to know how much you researched this issue. Are you picking sides just because you want to have an opinion, or do you really know something factual?

Anonymous said...

Why can’t we leave these discussions to the Historians and let our politicians work on the CURRENT issues? Like Darfur!

Armenian lobbies are very strong in the US and citizens of US need to realize that their politicians are being bought by campaign contributions. They’re trying to rewrite the history, with the power of their money, in the hopes of getting Turkey cornered, so they can sue them for losses. Believe me; they’re not working towards a simple Apology. This issue is keep coming up in front of American Congress, like there’s nothing else more important happening in the world!

Americans need to think about the consequences. Is it worth loosing the last friend they’ve got in the region? If the goal is to create democratic, modern governments in the Islamic world, alienating the only working example of democracy is not going to help.

I don’t know what happened a century ago… I don’t know if it was genocide or not… But I know that Wars are ugly and both sides suffered horribly. I know that Turks barely survived as a nation at the end of the world war. They were reduced from being the biggest empire in the world for centuries to 10 million survivors. They abandoned the Ottoman ways and built a shining example of democracy on their own. They are incredibly warm people, very close to Armenian culture I must say. Just stop demonizing Turks and for once, just for a change, applause their accomplishments. They’re the road map to what American’s are saying that they’re trying to accomplish in Iraq.

Anonymous said...

Every country in the world needs to think of their own good. We cannot loose Turkey. If we keep kicking them around like they're our red headed step child, they'll give up on us in some point. Let's give them some love and they'll love us back 10 times more. They've been trying to be included in the western world for decades now, so let's not push them to the arms of Islamic world.

Anonymous said...

"I don’t know what happened a century ago… I don’t know if it was genocide or not… But I know that Wars are ugly and both sides suffered horribly. I know that Turks barely survived as a nation at the end of the world war. They were reduced from being the biggest empire in the world for centuries to 10 million survivors. They abandoned the Ottoman ways and built a shining example of democracy on their own. They are incredibly warm people, very close to Armenian culture I must say. Just stop demonizing Turks and for once, just for a change, applause their accomplishments. They’re the road map to what American’s are saying that they’re trying to accomplish in Iraq."

Well said... Thank you!

Anonymous said...

Mr. 2:58 AM comment. As a matter of fact, Turks are trying to rewrite their own history by saying it never happened. The history attests that it happened, it is backed up historians, eye witness accounts, Anatolian Greeks, Arabs, german officers and for me my own grandoparents. So don't you dare say again it did not happen.

Lukas

Anonymous said...

" So don't you dare say again it did not happen."

Very open minded Lukas! Bravo! I applaud you! Loudly!

Nobody said people were not killed. But coining the term is the problem and your point of view (if one exists) is destroying the credibility of the armenian community. And Turkey opened his archieves while Armenia yet still refuses to. What is to be there to be afraid if the TRUTH will come out. I am no historian but based on presentations, I can tell you Armanians have the down side right now. And even if it is a non binding resolution, it still comes from a respected govenment and Turkey has every right to react in any way they want in their own interest. What do we expect? We want them to come to us with flowers because we passed a bill that states that they committed a genocide with no solid proofs? I think either you guys lost it and in full of hatred (which we try to cleanse from this country) or you really simply lie.

ellroon said...

As a child I knew some Armenians whose parents/grandparents had fled to this country. I had no understanding then as to why.

I have a hypothetical question. What would happen if Turkey did say, "Yes, something akin to genocide did actually happen in 1915. That was then, this is now. The people who instigated it are gone. We are sorry, it will never happen again under our government."?

What would happen? Armenians would feel vindicated. Turks would know the truth. The world would stop taking sides. What else would happen?

If that action is impossible, the next question is why is the US Congress bringing this to the fore now? Why now? What good will it do to address this at this moment when everything in the Middle East is teetering on the brink of disaster?

Anonymous said...

Rofl,

what the hell is that map you put?

A dream of Terrorists.

Oh Well.


To the other users that comments so sure about the armenian issues: Are you guys Historians? Turkey has it's evidences and proofs. You can check them out whenever you want. And that's what PM of Turkey says.^^

Peace!

ellroon said...

Dear Person Commenter at 4:12, did you think I was Turkish? Denying the Armenian genocide? Who am I clumped up with as in 'you guys'?

Did you even read my comment with any comprehension?

And Person Commenter at 4:54, the map is found on GOOGLE, you know, the SEARCH ENGINE that ANYONE can use?

Anonymous said...

dear people,
I'm a Turk and believe me that I and all of my firends also have grand parents talking about how armenian gangs sloughtered our people in 1915. But just in one difference... they say there are also Turkish gangs as well as Armenian gangs and when they talk about "our people" those grandparents never discriminate the people as armenian or turks. You and I could not make stories about days of war in 1915 nor democrates or the republicans in the House unless we got the right informations from the archives of the Ottoman Empire, England and Russia who fought in the reagion on those days. Someone interested in the subject can get access to the reports I believe at least ours (even military ones) opened to the field 2 years ago as an initiative to enlight the issue with Armenia (PS:Armenia never responded to the proposal. I know that nothing I can say here nor any evidence or report I present will change your mind like the people in the House. But admit that this has nothing to do with the genocide. It is all about money and power. The economy of Armenia is obvious. If the europian countries or US give the chance they will gladly use it couse they made it their national policy. Someone should think that a victim of genocide can get what in these days. Do you believe that all The Armenian Gov. seek an apology. Belive me it's not simple as it seems... So why am I writing this letter? We are fighting with a terrorist group (PKK) for 20 years and lost more than 35 thousand people including 2/3 of civilians and mostly the Kurdish originated people. This terorist organiztion has groups and breuos in Denmark, Holland, Germany, France, Italy etc... They even have TV channels in Brussel. They are directing the drug dealing procces from Afganistan to both EU and US. They are killing both our people and poisining yours but have you heard any actions from any EU country. Even US seems try to avoid dealling with PKK in Northern Iraq (cause PJAK a subgroup of PKK is also active in IRAN) Let me gather all of those for you TURKEY the one and only democratic secularist muslim republic in the region has allies who do not think that he belongs to the EU, do not let them to enter EU, punish Northern Cyprus (Turkish side) becouse they vote YES to Annan's plan and accepted southern part to the union, has a piticular allie who is trying to divide Iraq in to 3 parts inorder to destabilize region and have an acces to the oil reserves and the water in the northern Iraq, and also will control Iran with PJAK and other subgroups which will develope in time. People think that Turkey will react to this Armenian thing within predictible limits. What if not... What if TURKEY chosses the side with its neighbours SURİA and IRAN and lean its back to RUSSİA and CHINA... Then what? Belive it is the last thing that the western countries wanna see... Those unwanted small accounts for gaining some votes in some states can cause unpredictible consequences.. And having Turkey as aneutral contry would not matter but US missed that chance in 2003 by invading Iraq. As far as I see with my knowledge as a member of common puplic US and TURKEY will only be FRIENDS or FOES from now and then....

ellroon said...

Thank you, Person Commenter at 6:48.

Obviously we are all too young to have seen or lived through the 1915 -17 war that was going on. We have heard stories and seen photos. All we can agree to is that it was truly horrible.

That much is agreed upon.

Bu what happens when a government actively oppresses the search for truth? Throws writers in jail for printing something which to them is illegal? Why?

My unanswered question from earlier: Why not do this: open up the archives to a disinterested third party.. Norway or Sweden or somebody... and let ALL of the information out? Why not? It was almost a hundred years ago. What would be so horrible that the truth could not finally be seen and addressed?

Maybe Turkey did do genocide. Maybe Armenia did retaliate and do reciprocal genocide. Many innocents died.

Why not stop trying to contain the truth and let it out?

Tell me what harm there is in finally knowing what actually happened?

Anonymous said...

Whlist I agree that there is a problem with freedom of speech; I would like to remind that Turkey has opened its archives for the historians. Unfortunately the call for a joint research, found no reply from Armenia.
Ok, maybe there was a genocide, maybe not but I am having troubles to understand how Turkey is trying to cover so called truths, when she says all her archives are open for investigation?

Unknown said...

To pretend this resolution about condemning 'another government from another time' and has nothing to do with the Turkey or Turks of today is disingenuous to say the least.

Anyone with any knowledge about this issue knows that issue of recognizing Armenian genocide claims is tied to LAND RESTITUTION CLAIMS.

Armenia does not recognize Turkey's eastern border and considers east Turkey to be west Armenia. This is an ongoing territorial dispute to which history is just one component. THIS is one reason why Turks are reacting as angrily as they are.

Since it was founded, the Republic of Turkey has never sought an expansionist policy. It should be made abundantly clear to the Armenian Diaspora, Armenia and the U.S. Congress, that, as Ataturk once said, Turks will NOT give up one inch either.

If this was about historical truth, and not pandering to Armenian voters and contributers, then when are the Turks massacred by the Armenian militias going to be the subject of a resolution?

The genocide resolution says nothing about the 2 million Muslim and Turkic people forcibly relocated and ruthlessly massacred by Russia aided by ARMENIANS from 1820-1920. Nor does it address the horrid conditions under which Turkic and Muslim people were expelled from the Balkans. According to ethnographic studies conducted by Professor Justin McCarthy of the University of Kentucky, while populations the rest of the world over were increasing, due to war, massacre and ensuing famines, the population of Turkic Muslim people diminished by 5 MILLION between 1820-1923. Turks, however, do not run from one parliament to another screaming "genocide" because they understand, it was war. They do not use their dead for dishonorable means.

This resolution also says nothing about the Azeris massacred by Armenians within the last 20 years or the U.N. Resolution calling for Armenians to return territories they've occupied in Karabakh.

If this is about historical truth, why does Armenia refuse to open its archives, as Turkey has? Why does Armenia refuse to take part in a historical committee, as Turkey proposes? Why has this resolution not been written by historians?

Why are the views of the 69 historians who objected to the accuracy when this resolution first surface being ignored? Who in the US is a more qualified Middle Eastern Historian than Bernard Lewis? The Encyclopedia of History and Historians says nobody.

Apparently, some Congress people with large Armenian constituencies disagree, they feel they are better qualified. Either that, or they are using despicable means to get us out of Iraq (what else could we do if Incirlik is closed?).

ellroon said...

Well, finally! Thank you, lazdamar. Some insight why Turkey might not want to reopen the discussion of Armenian genocide (and all the other genocides of that time.)

I will go and research more. Thanks.

Unknown said...

There is additional information adding historical context to the dispute here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/printedition/tuesday/chi-oped1016endoct16,0,2073252.story

It's written by historian Norman Stone and provides a more balanced view than that presented by Armenian lobbyists.